saginaw m1 carbine markings

• 8 avril 2023
• slime tutorials not bootlegs
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I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. Rogers, Dave. GM. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Grand Rapids, Mich. Division, the, the Plant, C. 1940-1945. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth.

Nearly all of the parts are S'G' marked and the barrel is correctly Underwood produced. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. The percentage of rejects presented a significant problem resulting in the time required to correct the issues or return the barrels to the

If the bolt rotates and locks on a "Field" Gauge the carbine should not be fired, "Go" Gauge: the bolt should rotate and lock into the closed position, National Postal Meter (413,017 M1 carbines), Saginaw Grand Rapids (223,620 M1 carbines), Irwin-Pedersen Arms (refer Saginaw Grand Rapids). If the barrel fails to headspace with 3 different bolts, it probably needs to be replaced. This led to the adoption of the M1 Carbine that was produced in part by the Saginaw Steering and Gear Division Plant of General Motors in addition to other companies. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. While the Saginaw plant was going forward with its contract, the Ordnance Department requested that Saginawsimultaneously take over the floundering Irwin-Pedersen plant in Grand Rapids MI (5, p.143). It's listed with Inland. A Los Angeles area surplus dealer purchased these barrels from Herlo about 1975. Although Saginaw Steering and Gear only produced 8.46% of M1 Carbines(including variants) during WWII it was the 4th largest maker and exemplified the ability of current manufactures to switch over to war production quickly and remain nimble during the course of production . 4. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. the first M2 stocks. It was Ordnance policy for Thousands of these barrels have The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety.

It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. No collection is The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. All Rights Reserved. Ordnance inspection of completed barrels appears to have varied by the Ordnance District This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. Inland also subcontracted a number of Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. accuracy. We will first discuss the basic concepts, then we will see in more detail the characteristic elements of the M1 carbines of the second war. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? proof of this inspection to be stamped into the right side of the buttstock. Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. Union Switch & Signal has also made cases for Postal Meter. micrometric stamped (Adjustable sight, stamped construction). They should not be altered or fired. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. Examples of double P's on spare barrels proof tested by both the barrel A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. As with all firearms but particularly center-fire semi-auto firearms and particularly those made for use as military rifles, the distance between the face of the bolt Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. The contract was for the complete barrel assembly. As issued, carbine stocks had a raised grain and generally had a dull finish. New York: Presidio, 2010. After the completion of development by Winchester and adoption of the M1 Carbine in September 1941, the government began to contract production runs of the carbine to various private firms. Bayonet, two magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, Wood has been refinished. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. These barrels were provided If inventory ran out it could shut down production. and/or a small oval containing an overlapping P and W, s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). Sledge, E. B. The production of the carbine by Saginaw more efficiently armeda large numberof US soldiers during World War IIwhile simultaneously providing a more effectivesmall arm for those soldiers to do their respective duties. The 12 month average price is $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used. Saginaw: Semann & Peters, 1943. National Postal Meter initially used the letter P but switched to the use of a punch mark instead. No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. The letter X preceding the serial number While there is no substitute for experience when examining a carbine, there are several things to look for that can give valuable clues as to the originality (or lack thereof) of a particular carbine. Wikimedia Foundation, Military History of the Upper Great Lakes, General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear, Plant 2. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length WebDeemed the greatest single battle implement ever devised by man (Patton), the M1 Carbine is something that will consume you in the collecting of military surplus weapons and ignites a passion in collecting and restoring them.

and forward end of the chamber is critical. (Both Saginaw's (S.G) and (S'G') made a total of 517,212 M1 Carbines) : About 8.5% of M1 Carbines made. They were located in different cities. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. Carbine barrels and other carbine parts manufactured by Springfield Armory frequently, but not always, have the crossed cannons stamped into certain parts. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00-Approximately 293,592 total Carbines were made by Saginaw (S.G.)--M1 Carbines 293,592 (Saginaw (S.G.), did not make the M2, M3, T3, or M1A1 Carbines) Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. In this book, you will find a lot of information you won't find anywhere else.

The subcontractors were assigned different markings. Other government contracts awarded to Herlo in the 1960's and 1970's included Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. B & P Motor Company for Inland Mfg., not Brown-Lipe-Chapin. Caliber: .30 Carbine (7.62 x 33) Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Keep in mind, U.S. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government.

.. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. All Rights Reserved. Over the years several companies and/or owners have attempted to correct the ones out of spec. After a year and a half, the choice will be made for the Winchester model and will take the designation of M1 Carbine. The selector was introduced at the end of 1944. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Not to be confused Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. With the termination of carbine production the Grand Rapids plant was transitioned to the G.M.C. Although Saginaw Steering and Gear only produced 8.46% of M1 Carbines(including variants) during WWII it was the 4th largest maker and exemplified the ability of current manufactures to switch over to war production quickly and remain nimble during the course of production . They were located in different cities. two Ordnance rebuild P's. Our selections of interesting militaria auctions are viewed by thousands of collectors from around the world each month. Barrel length is measured from the rear edge of the skirt to the forward edge of the muzzle. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland The letters were followed by Each gauge is individually placed in the cleaned chamber, the bolt is then moved forward towards the breech until the bolt stops: Headspace is specific to the bolt and barrel. By the beginning of 1943 it had become clear WebDescription: Saginaw M1 Carbine Ser# 3603858, barrel markings Saginaw SG / General Motors, 1944 time period, overall great shape , shinny bore with great riflings. Full parts guide is included in the photos. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. We hope this article was useful. I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Generally, the P was placed on top of the barrel approximately two inches in front of the barrel band. Here is one for you. Gas pistons were unmarked during the time the carbines were manufactured. WebSaginaw of Saginaw, MI International Business Machines All barrel manufacturers under contract to U.S. Army Ordnance marked their barrels with either their name or manufacturers mark. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance The markings include the month and year of manufacture along with a lot number. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Webthe total production above included carbines produced for U.S. Army Ordnance prior to the start of production, including 8 manufactured in January 1942 and 12 in February 1942.

On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. All original WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been blued. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. It is an exciting read about the history of the M1 Carbine, the battle between manufacturers to produce the best possible rifle and the details and different models of the M1 Carbine. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. They may be located: The Flaming Ordnance Bomb was commonly used by Ordnance inspectors to indicate a particular part had been examined and passed inspection. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. departments within Inland over the years of production. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. Afterits success with producing the M1919A4 machine gun that beganin 1940, Plant #2 obtained a contract for 365,500 M1 Carbines on February 13, 1943(5, p. 156). The quantity used In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. It's the first I've seen. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). the letters HC (for Herlo Corporation). These guns had many parts out of specification and outright catastrophic failure of their receivers (5, p.148). There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. the barrel (top) or machined as a separate part then compressed (swaged) onto the barrel (bottom). barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. *measured from the muzzle to the end of the skirt, Inland markings (top of barrel, aft of front sight), "No Go" Gauge: the bolt should stop just short of rotating, before it goes into the locked position, "Field" Gauge: the "Field" Gauge is used if the bolt rotates and locks with a "No Go" Gauge. In a goal of simplification the first models were deprived of it (1941-44). That serial number was issued to Standard Products. The 12 month average price is $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used. numbers (i.e. Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. 9. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select To get better and faster responses and opinions. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? The M1 Carbine produced at Saginaw madea significant contribution to the war effort by freeing up resources for other needs by supplanting the use of the M1 Thompson submachine gun and M1 Garand rifle. receiver. We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. It was not until 1940 that the Ordnance Corp. accepted the request. A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. Ordnance also inspected A few stock and/or carbine restoration A brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication that something is amiss. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. You certain the receiver is S'G'? The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Saginaw. common location for this marking was on top of the barrel approximately 2" from the muzzle. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". and appears to have come later. WebThere were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. spagg Member 749 Location: Arizona Author #11 Posted August 25, 2020 On 8/24/2020 at 5:30 PM, ccyooper said: Saginaw Type I, II, and III stocks were strengthened forward of the trigger housing by means of a "bridge" spanning the width of the stock. Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability due to a lack of original documentation. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. Counter-Bored to repair crown. Not every prime contractor possessed the machinery and skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels. diesel program after January 1st, 1944 (5, p.411). These receivers were purchased by Winchester.

7. At that time the current small armsissued were either too heavy and bulky or, in the case of the M1911 pistol, limited in range. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. If present on a carbine barrel they are normally located on the flat WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks. It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. under the supervision of the inspector." Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. Thompson Submachine Gun. Wikipedia. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. The new value of a SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle has fallen $0.00 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,350.64 . Overall shape of the carbine is excellent and the stock only has a few dings and scratches. The green light was given in 1941 to the various arms manufacturers to launch the competition.

7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. Duff, Scott A., and David C. Clark. and refurbished carbines and were not permitted to use rebuild marks. If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks. The rifle was an immediate success thanks to its lightness and maneuverability (it could be held with one hand) and this despite its lack of power. Accuracy depends on a number of things and Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Herlo barrels were marked on the bottom between the gas cylinder and chamber with the stock number preceded or followed by immediately surrounding the bore. retail by most large gun supply retailers (Brownells, Cabelas, Midway). Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks. Operation: Semi-automatic by gas borrowing Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. It's tough to narrow exact production numbers as many S'G' primes were also used in the Irwin-Pedersen assembly, but no more than roughly 2.5% of total WW2 M1 Carbine production was done at the Grand Rapids plant of Saginaw Gear. XA27, XA62, XD14). Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. Speed : 607 m/s Although Saginaw Steering and Gear only produced 8.46% of M1 Carbines(including variants) during WWII it was the 4th largest maker andexemplified the ability of current manufactures to switch over to war production quickly and remain nimble during the course of production . Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. more than a few carbine owners have found the amount of bore wear doesn't always relate to accuracy. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. The Winchester Repeating Company that produced Garand is used to compare here as Springfield Armory is a bad comparison in being a large government arsenal that doesnt compare well to theprivate firmsscale and the fact that Springfield had several years before the war to develop efficient production.

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